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Talk:Operation Deep Dive
Seems a bit strange that the order would be to kill Elizabeth instead of to slaughter Atlas and all his Splicer criminals first and foremost - if thats the way (now very murderous) Ryan is portrayed this early in Rapture storyline. Similarly permanently eliminating enemies like Lamb should also have been done if he is supposed to be this ruthless. The old Canon showed Ryan having killed people who tried to assassinate him (or very personal betrayals as is implied with the vague incidents with Jasmine Jolene). 14:19, March 23, 2016 (UTC) :You are overlooking that as time goes on Ryan's true (power hungry, authoritative, possessive) nature comes out. In other words the more time that passes, the worse he is. Also Ryan knows for a fact that Elizabeth is NOT from Rapture and that makes her a threat since he values Raptures secrecy. He even calls her a thief. :"Do you know what they call someone who enters a man's home uninvited? A thief. And I do not remember inviting you into my city." :He has some interests in Elizabeth's abilities, BUT if he can't control her he will destroy her. :"I don't claim to understand what you are. But I know that you are special. There is business we can do together. And so, I give you a choice. Work for me -- or die with Atlas." "You're one of a kind in this world, or others." :--Solarmech (talk) 15:41, March 23, 2016 (UTC) :This audio diary is dated before the Kashmir Massacre happened, and by the old canon it is before Atlas was on Ryan's radar. So as far as 'time goes on' this is quite early. Later emergency conditions - terrorist mass murdering citizens, important infrastructure being damaged, etc... lead to understandable escalations in measures to be taken to protect Rapture. So Elizabeth's serious connection to Atlas (who in previous canon was inconsequential at this point in time) is likewise being overblown 'for the plot' in the DLC. If Atlas was already 'the rebellion ringleader', then he should be in solitary confinement in Persephone, and not running rampant in this laughable 'prison' . Ryan also apparently can 'see all' to finger Elizabeth in her strangeness, but is oblivious to Atlas brewing trouble in that 'prison' OR Ryan did nothing about that while strong measures are instantly applied to a nebulous situation with this 'Elizabeth person. :BTW, Previous canon didnt show 'death penalty' for previous (before the 'civil war' started while 'normalcy' was still the setting) 'thieves' or 'trespassers'/security risks/seditionists. Thats the point -- the DLC is presenting things as if it was the same as much later Rapture AFTER the Civil War started, when things had changed significantly in the way things were handled. *** I just noticed this was not included in the game, so really cant be counted as 'canon', but other events in the DLC follow a similar canon distortion. : 03:23, March 24, 2016 (UTC) : ::Audio Diary found near the VERY dead body of Tommy H. in Neptune's Bounty. This is clearly before Fontaine had been arrested. ::Mr. Ryan asked me personally to make this clear to you. You give us Fontaine, and this whole filthy ring of his, and you'll be knocking back pints up at the Fighting McDonaghs. But if you prefer to play the mule... we'll treat you like a mule... Give him a taste, Patrick... '' ::(Timmy screams from electrocution)'' ::Sullivan: Oh, what's that? Change of heart, Timmy? Timmy? Ready to talk now? ::Timmy H: Go on, Sullivan... go on and do your dirty! ...Whatever Ryan thinks he can do to me, Fontaine can do double! ::Also found in Neptune's Bounty and ALSO from before Fontaine's arrest since this is the point they were they were combating smugglers and Sullivan does not have a solid connection to Fontaine yet, else he would have mentioned it. ::Hanging now, is it? That's what we've come to? Now look, I don't make the laws here, I just enforce them. But I didn't come to Rapture to string men up for running contraband. If Ryan and his crew have their law, then they can have my badge. ::Ryan was paranoid about keeping Rapture secret. The fact that one of the first things he does when Jack arrives is accuse him of being CIA or KGB should have been a hint. You may want to believe Rapture was all honky dory and Ryan was only doing what he needed to "protect" Rapture, but his destruction of a forest on the surface out of pure spite shows that he has always been a nasty person. Killing Elizabeth fits right in with his spite (If I can't have her, no one can) and desire to control the city (Elizabeth was an intruder and therefor a threat that he needed to control or destroy.) If your view of Ryan and Raptures history does not match up with established facts there is nothing I can do about it. Ryan clearly WAS killing people before Fontaine was arrested and in the "normal" times. sm --Solarmech (talk) 04:53, March 24, 2016 (UTC) ::Torture != execution (consult history of police activities and sometime incidents of accidental deaths as a result). ::Hanging as a official Rapture penalty for the crime of smuggling. Sullivan apparently didnt quit over the issue (I wonder what he thought of Fontaines goons killing his officers when they attempted to arrest Fontaine at Neptunes Bounty after sufficient evidence WAS obtained). ::Was Ryan unreasonably 'paranoid' ? Again consult history of KGB and CIA to try to understand what Ryan may have been wary/afraid of. Read a little about the deadly shennanigans that DID go on during the Cold War. So you dont think either side would try to grab Rapture and its technological advancements for itself OR destroy it to deny it to their enemies? ::Pure spite? Right of the citizen to their own property = constitutional law, so maybe was in protest of seizure of his property by a socialist government (remember he built and went to Rapture to get away from things like that). ::Ryan doesnt know what Elizabeth is (states that) so how exactly is she supposed to become his? Lock her up maybe. But execute her without figuring out what she was or who sent her or whatever ?? He WOULD want to know that, wouldn't he? ::If your view of Ryan and Rapture's history is a matter of interpretation which you insist yours is the right one, then there is nothing I can do about that. ::How many of the people Ryan supposedly had killed do you actually have the facts for ? Reexaming how vague most accounts are (particularly first 2 games) and you may find it is hard to pin down the 'facts' about most of them (particularly any ones before the civil war). :: 08:43, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :::Torture of a person without a trial in a city that is supposed to be a libertarian paradise with the most minimal of government. Ryan was already violating what he claimed to believe in. Also I find it very sad that you try to equate torture (Picana/Parrilla) with reasonable police methods of interrogation. :::I notice that you don't even try to rebut the fact that Tommy H. illegal death and Hanging for the crime of smuggling occurred before Fontaine's "death". And we all know why, even if you refuse to admit it. :::It's paranoid to think that the only survivor a plane crash automatically HAS to be a government agent without a single shred of evidence to back it up. And I am well aware of the games the CIA and KGB played. Did you ever consider I might know more about the subject than you do? :::Yep, Pure Spite. Why? Because there is a concept called Eminent Domain. It's legal limit is stated in the 5th Amendment "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." The US govt DOES have the right to "nationalize" private property with proper compensation and it's stated in the Constitution. I would think you would get tired of making excuses for Ryan. :::Ryan has two ways to deal with a mystery as he states them in Neptune's' Bounty. There's two ways to deal with a mystery: uncover it or eliminate it. So killing Elizabeth if she does not come to work for him is SOP. :::We can't say how many people Ryan killed because we don't have enough facts to even guess at a number. But that does not change the fact we know he WAS killing people. While the dates may be vague on what happens, the ORDER most events take place in is relatively clear. And as a note, using the Fallacy of "Appeal to Ignorance" does you no favors and make it look like you are trying to avoid the fact that Ryan was a Class A Monster who had long ago gone over the Moral Event Horizon. Sorry, you ARE trying to avoid the fact that Ryan was a Class A Monster who had gone over the Moral Event Horizon. I think we are done here. sm --Solarmech (talk) 11:20, March 24, 2016 (UTC) :::- :::- :::- :::Torture is not an unusual event in police work. Your assumed most liberal law enforcement today regularly withholds a 'fix' from drug offenders to gain a plea bargain or information about conspiracy in their crime. Timmy H - We dont know the details involved - they are largely lacking. Timmy H possibly was caught red handed smuggling (why else would he be there? Why would Sullivan waste his time... and Timmy virtually admits his involvement in that crime), and Sullivan was seeking to gain proper evidence linking it all to Fontaine. Perhaps it goes back to an old belief that those who reject the social contract and commit crimes (refusing to live by the social contral) make themseleves "outlaws" (those outside the law) and lose rights reserved for those who keep to the deal. Its often a matter of practicality - if the system is so one sided that the criminals can claim all the rights and can avoid justice because of the inefficiencies of an absolutist system. :::BTW Timmy H wasnt hanged to death he's just hung up for his 'torture' session and propbably died by accident, -- an accident as a dead potential stoolie can't tattle and give official evidence :::Paranoid .... Rather strange - a crash with only one survivor right ontop of the lighthouse? Someone that Atlas starts talking to and recruiting almost immediately. One obviously being aimed as an assassin at Ryan ? Remember its implied that Ryan heard alot of the radio traffic going on - Atlas to Jack, and probably had it all under surveilliance while Ryan was trying to figure out what was going on instead of simply sending in his Heavies to simply execute Jack (or arrest him - which would answer Ryans questions much better). :::As far as the CIA/KGB the way you simply label Ryans perceptions as 'paranoia' seems to show little understanding of why Ryan very well thought the way he is shown to think (of course what he may have actually thought may NOT be quite reflected by his words we heard). Ask your parents about what they though during the Cuban Missile Crisis for example of what the Cold War meant to people back then. Likewise consider what happens under war conditions when normalcy is gone. My big point is the DLC pushed that onto the time BEFORE Kashmir, which contradicted the setting at the time presented in the previous games. Yes, Ryan could use ruthless methods which he wouldnt have done previously, and which he (is shown) didnt like, but that frequently happens when war changes things and things become desperate. :::Eminent Domain is a much contested idea in the USA (so is who decides what is 'just compensation'. It has been abused MANY times). Ryan being the champion of individual rights ... which side of that contest would you put Ryan? SO he acted upon his belief and apparently burned down his own property (if it was ALREADY government owned wouldn't he have been thrown in jail over that incident ?) I wonder if they tried to seize any other forest he owned after that. Alot of Americans would have applauded Ryans action doing that to. Oh and particularly for things like parks and such, Eminent Domain is rarely used (theres this need to "show proper cause" - THATS part of the law also). ::: "the ORDER most events take place in is relatively clear" ... hardly. Many timings (the context) of events is very significant filling in the reasons why a particular thing happened. We dont even get straight talk saying "I did this", instead it is presented quite indirectly and unclear. There is a great deal of vagueness throught the game's events as well as obvious bias of the people doing various recordings or accounts the game presents. Having DLC come along and muddy it up further only increases the problem. :::"Ryan was a..." You seriously need to investigate what constitues 'fact' and what doesnt. Opinion does NOT constitute 'fact'. The vagueness and the story's two dimensional presentation of Ryan leaves much to interpretation. :::BTW, I love the "now Im taking my ball and going home" method of argument. Its always funny because Ive seen it countless times after weak arguments. Well, YOU are done here I guess. ::: 12:40, March 24, 2016 (UTC)